How Associations Can Use Microcredentials to Elevate Learning Value With Letty Kluttz

Bill Sheehan (00:00):

Welcome to Learning by Association, a podcast brought to you by D2L. Where we delve into the ever-evolving world of associations and the challenges they face in navigating the currents of change. I’m Bill Sheehan and I’m thrilled to be your host. Join me and our guest as we explore the role learning plays in driving associations forward, and how it can impact every part of your organization. From recruiting to engagement and renewals, to staff development, business strategy and more. So let’s dive in.

(00:30):

Hi everyone. Bill Sheehan here, Global Head of Association Strategy at D2L, with another exciting episode of Learning by Association. Today we’re very privileged and honored to have Letty from APIC talk to us a little bit about something that has been the talk of the town. It’s the buzzword in associations right now, it’s micro-credentialing. And Letty, thank you so much for being on this program. You have such great experience in this particular topic, so we’re really fortunate to have you on here. If you could, Letty, just take a few minutes just to introduce yourself and what you do at APIC.

Letty Kluttz (01:10):

Sure. Thanks Bill. It’s nice to be here. I appreciate the invitation. I love education, so I’m really, really, really excited to be here to talk about micro-credentials. So as you mentioned, I work for APIC, which is the Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology, where I am the senior vice President of education, membership and programs. That’s just a fancy way of saying I oversee essentially all of our revenue producing departments of which education is one of the larger of those areas.

(01:46):

It is something that I am really excited about. It’s something that, as you and I were chatting before this officially started, that micro-credentials are just really starting to bubble up. And healthcare in particular, people love to have badges, credentials, insert noun, to demonstrate their knowledge in particular areas. So I am thrilled to be able to share some of the approach that we have taken to micro-credentials and some of the lessons learned as we have begun this journey.

Bill Sheehan (02:17):

Great. In fact, when I was out at ASAE back in August and was talking about non-dense revenue and the like, which is obviously a critical concern within associations today, but one of the things that was talking all over the place was the micro-credentialing and badging. And because of that, there is so much talk about that. From your standpoint, how would you define micro-credentialing in the association space, and particularly how APIC is looking at micro-credentialing as well?

Letty Kluttz (02:55):

Sure. It’s funny because we actually did a session at ASAE on this very topic. And one of the things that I will, before I answer your question, I want to give a little piece of advice and perhaps even some much needed levity, I guess for lack of a better word, when it comes to micro-credentials. Because as we started down this journey, one of the things that I started to do was, I wanted to see what others were doing. I wanted to understand the landscape of what a micro-credential is. And one of the things that we mentioned in the session, that I’ll mention today as well, is that it’s not a one-size-fits-all approach, which is both a good and a bad. So you will drive yourself crazy if you try to find a template or a standard for how micro-credentials are defined and are approached by different associations, by different companies, because it is so different. So in that sense, it’s a plus because you can chart your own course.

(03:55):

So for APIC, when we were looking at how do we define micro-credentials, how do we determine what actually becomes a micro-credential? We took the skills-based approach. Where we were looking at a very specific, very niche topic. That was where we wanted to identify what are micro-credentials. So for example, we launched a micro-credential earlier this summer on surveillance. We are working on two other additional micro-credentials on quality and safety, and construction and renovation, and these are all for infection preventionists. That’s our particular audience. So again, when we were looking at this, we wanted to be very, as the name implies, micro, small, so you really want it to be focused. That is for us, one of the ways that we differentiated it from a larger certification. For example, where you’re looking at the body of knowledge, the body of information across many, many different competencies. This is really honing in and focusing on a very specific area.

(04:58):

We also wanted to make sure that we were differentiating it from other professional development opportunities that we have. All of our micro-credentials are asynchronous, online only. They’re about eight hours of content. Again, we wanted these to be small and we want it to be consistent. And so with our micro-credentials, the approach that we took is that it is, as I said, an online course. And that once you go through that course, and you have a year to go through it, so you can go through it in a month, you can go through it in a year, and then when you have gone through the course, there is an assessment at the end. In order to get your badge, you have to pass that assessment.

(05:39):

So an example, some other associations will do a micro-credential where you have multiple different deliverables. Maybe you have to take an in-person course, maybe you also have to do certain webinars, you have to do all of these other things. That’s an example of, you can define what’s included as part micro-credential when it comes to preparing for studying, for learning that particular topic. But that was the approach that we took.

Bill Sheehan (06:06):

Well, that sounds very thorough as well. Just curious, how do you start something like this? I think a lot of associations have that desire to do micro, they just don’t know where to start.

Letty Kluttz (06:20):

Well, I feel their pain, because we didn’t either, quite frankly. That was why it really did take us a long time. I would say it probably took us a year and a half to really get focused on the skill specific on the length on the topics. Because when we started out this conversation, we have a professional development committee, so we brought in representatives from that committee, from our certification partner. And started to have these conversations on, “Okay, what does a micro-credential look like? Again, how does it differ from certification? How do we not confuse the marketplace?” So it did take us a while, which again is where we ended up based with this very specific skill-based, not settings-based. For example, we’re not going to have a micro-credential in long-term care, we actually have a certification on long-term care. So we wanted to make sure that we were being very clear about what those guardrails were so that we didn’t confuse people.

Bill Sheehan (07:27):

I was going to say, that takes a lot. And I’m glad to hear that you got some stakeholders from members on the committees to get involved because they’re in the field and the like. How do you determine… What sets that barometer for the micro-credential? In other words, do you have to say, “Once you go through this, you are properly trained and prepared in this specific micro…” Who helps define what the tests are and what the intelligence that is needed in order to have this micro-credential? Is that also working with the professional development committees and really establishing that baseline?

Letty Kluttz (08:11):

First of all, when we have SMEs, we also worked with a partner to make sure that we were putting it on a platform that was where people can actually engage with it, can learn at their own pace. So we can kind of put a sidebar in that one, because I do think that is critically important. But as far as the content goes, yes, we had SMEs who created the courses, who wrote the assessment questions. But as any good instructional designer, any adult learner will tell you, you always design with the end in line. So defining who that audience is ahead of time is so, so important to make sure that you are actually creating content for that particular audience. So is it someone who is new to infection prevention? Is it someone who has been in the field for five to 10 years? You want to be mindful of who that audience is and then design for that audience in mind.

(09:07):

The other thing, the approach that we are taking with our micro-credentials, it’s not a one and done. We acknowledge, particular in healthcare, just look at the last five years. Five years ago Covid was just a twinkle in our eye and the industry has fundamentally changed as a result of that. We wanted to make sure that we were keeping this content fresh. So every three years is when we are going to review it, and if you have the micro-credential, you do need to renew it every three years. And that renewal process is going through the course, retaking the assessment to then be reissued that digital badge at the end.

Bill Sheehan (09:46):

I think some folks forget, with certification or accreditation, there’s always a renewal period. Sometimes when you create these new types of badges or micro-credentialing, you forget there should be something tied to that as well so that you can enhance that.

(09:59):

Let me ask another question too, with regards to, once you create that first micro-credentialing course or whatever that is, are subsequent models easier or should they plan for taking the same amount of time and due diligence for other segments and other types of micro-credentialing? Is the first one the hardest one to create?

Letty Kluttz (10:20):

Yes. I think the first one’s always the hardest. Truly, you’re getting your training wheels going, honestly. And I think one of the things, I shared this at the ASAE question and I can’t emphasize this enough, is to make sure you select the correct space. It is so, so, so important that you are bringing on the right subject matter experts to help you create and review the content. That’s a lesson learned from us. We had one that was delayed probably six to eight months because it just… And God bless our SMEs, they were perfectionists and they wanted to make sure everything was perfect. And as anyone can tell you, nothing’s going to be perfect, especially the first time out of the gate. You just kind of learn and perfect and continuous improvement as you go down this journey. But the first one is absolutely always the hardest. I think it serves as a template, but it shouldn’t be the Bible.

(11:16):

You may have, again, I think the content is going to dictate. But that said, you also don’t want to create a micro-credential that’s going to take someone 24 hours to go through it, because that’s not a micro-credential. So really our litmus test, if you will, is really we try to stay right around that eight hours of content. Then maybe you do a two different versions of it where if you start on this journey with a topic and as you’re working through the outline, you determine, “You know what? This actually may make two separate topics,” then separate it. I think there’s a lot of flexibility as you’re going through and creating the content. Again, chart your own adventure if you will. That gives you a lot of adaptability and flexibility to determine what works for you and what works for your content.

Bill Sheehan (12:04):

And from an internal standpoint, from the staff standpoint, you do a lot there at APIC, right? You personally have a lot going on, and now you’ve created, in essence, a new offering, a new benefit, a new service for members in addition to the other great services you provide, like the other certification type of [inaudible 00:12:27]. When you dedicate yourself to this, you’re not seeing any, lack of a better term, cannibalization from other types of offerings that you’re having, right? Because this micro-credentialing seems really cool. I can get through it really quick. I love… So this is great. Are you seeing either any of that type of cannibalization, another certification or education offering?

Letty Kluttz (12:55):

Well, that’s a great question and it’s something definitely to be mindful of. One of the things that we did when we were looking at these particular topics, we said, “What else do we have that could help inform this, or that we could use as resources to create this micro-credential?” So it is not cannibalizing anything by any stretch of the imagination. The other thing that’s nice about this too, is that for example, we have what we call APIC-Text, which is essentially a hundred plus chapters of content related to infection prevention. One of those chapters is on construction and renovation. So we use that chapter and the content in that chapter to help inform what this micro-credential covered.

(13:47):

Now, somebody could say, “I’m not ready to take this micro credential yet.” So we could say, “Okay, well if you have a subscription to APIC-Text, read this chapter. Read this chapter, take the time to really dive into that and make sure you understand it, because that was one of the resources that was used. It’ll help prepare you and feel like you have a better understanding. Maybe listen to some webinars that we’ve done.” So I think it’s just really being mindful of what you have, how it can be repurposed or inform what you’re doing, but also provided as an additional resource to someone who wants to learn more.

Bill Sheehan (14:24):

You touched on something too, and being an ex-association executive, whenever we had a new offering, sometimes we forgot one of the most critical elements, and that’s promoting it. Then to letting the membership and the industry, I guess, the greater industry in general, know that this offering now is under the umbrella of APIC and have come in. So hopefully you were starting to see more engagement and maybe even longer times of engagement with the association. Was that the case with this? Did you get a chance to get new members, if you will, who maybe weren’t as participatory in the association a little bit more engaged because of the new micro-credentialing?

Letty Kluttz (15:08):

Not yet, but that’s what we’re hoping will happen. Again, kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier. When you’re looking at particular topics, one of the reasons why we selected surveillance is exactly what you just described, the opportunity to attract people outside of your traditional IP role. Because you have a lot of individuals who will do surveillance in hospitals and different facilities that don’t consider themselves a full-time IP, a full-time infection preventionist, or even consider themselves an infection preventionist by training by trade. So this opens up a whole different audience to hopefully actually attract people to the field of infection prevention, but also to demonstrate that people who are on the periphery or the tertiary of infection prevention, that this is actually providing them with demonstration of skills that know what they’re doing as it relates to this particular skill set.

Bill Sheehan (16:08):

Yeah, that’s great too. Then on top of all of that too, APIC has a wonderful history. It’s known as the standard within the industry. So any certification, any education coming from that is going to be seen as the good housekeeping seal of approval or that single source of truth for this. When you begin micro-credentialing, isn’t there an effort you need to say to the greater industry, someone who has this micro-credential is smarter or better prepared than one who does not?

Letty Kluttz (16:43):

Yes.

Bill Sheehan (16:43):

Is there kind of an effort, I guess public relations or communications effort to the industry to educate them on the importance and critical nature of these micro-credentials? Is that part of the plan too?

Letty Kluttz (16:53):

Absolutely. Yep. It is absolutely part of the plan, but also helping educate and define what a micro-credential is. Because that concept is relatively new to healthcare. It is certainly new to infection prevention. So we want people to understand what we mean when we say micro-credential. It doesn’t mean that it is smaller, that it is less important, it just means that it is focused on a particular topic area. A.

(17:22):

Nd that came about in various conversations that we were having with some IPs. We’re like, “Okay, what does this mean? What does micro-credential mean? We don’t understand this concept.” Which is a great lesson learned for us to take a step back out of that, wear the education hat. You’re like, “Well, everyone knows what a micro-credential is,” but they don’t, so that is absolutely critical. If you want to be successful, you got to bring along people with you and define and what these are, why they’re beneficial. This is great for you to add to your resume. It’s great for you when you’re interviewing to talk about how you have demonstrated expertise in this particular area.

Bill Sheehan (18:01):

I was just going to say, do you happen to work in tune with any other like associations or organizations to help promote that? Or you find that sometimes that can get a little bit confusing or conflicting as well for that? I just didn’t know. In the association community, it’s huge. We’re all in it together, but we serve different purposes. I just wonder if there’s ways to help promote the micro-credentialing, not only through the members organizations, but maybe even other like associations that might help promote that who aren’t doing that micro-credentialing.

Letty Kluttz (18:36):

I think it’s a yes and, situation. I think it’s both of those, honestly. But it’s also being really smart and really thoughtful about who those partnerships are with, and making sure that their audience is an audience that would be interested in this. We are having conversations with other associations who are in the healthcare space where there’s some overlap between areas of expertise. Whether it is in construction and renovation, whether it’s in quality and safety or surveillance. We’re exploring other topics as well, we’re looking at high-level disinfection. So depending on which direction we go in, I think there’s always a, I like to quote our CEO, Devin, “All boats rise.” Not everyone has to create everything, and if you can share in the risk, you also share in the reward.

Bill Sheehan (19:31):

I was going to ask too, it’s interesting that you say all boats rise, and I love that, particularly for the associations and how they can really advance industries. I was just curious when you were looking at micro-credentialing, I’m assuming you saw it as a compliment to existing certifications versus a threat. In other words, it’s more of a compliment to that. And I think members have to understand that too. It’s like you’re saying, it’s the yes and. So I have that as well.

(20:06):

But let me ask too, what were some of the initial challenges that you saw when you were trying to create this micro-credential? What should some associations look at or consider before jumping into and committing to this? Because to me, I think it’s not just a one and done, like you said. You’re committed to this, this is a hundred percent commitment. It’s got to be ongoing as well. It’s not just put your feet in the water. I’m just curious, what were some of the challenges that you’ve faced?

Letty Kluttz (20:37):

Oh gosh, that’s another great question. Before I answer that, I want to go back to what you were saying about micro-credentials and certification. I think they fit two different things. Those being, they can be additive and complimentary. I think they are really good potential entree into getting certification as well. So for us with if someone holds a certification when they go through recertifying, they can actually use the micro-credentials for recertification credit. That’s an example of when you can use it for the benefit of renewing your certification. If you don’t feel like you are ready to sit for certification, maybe those are topic areas that you can use to help you feel more comfortable as it relates very specific areas within that larger body. So I did want to mention that because that is something that we absolutely talked about because we were very mindful of that.

(21:36):

But again, same circling back to the question you asked, which my first piece of advice would be, which gets to the challenge is, where do you start? How do you figure out what topic to start in? Then that was probably our biggest challenge, is identifying that. And sometimes you just got to start somewhere. You just got to pick a topic. I think for us, use the needs assessment, use the surveys that you’re asking our members, and look to see where are they telling you that they need additional information, education, resources on. Start there so that you have that it is actually backed by data, backed by research. And then you look for, “Okay, what makes sense to create a micro-credential?” And again, I would highly, highly recommend you go very, very specific on a topic area.

(22:33):

So from there it is, okay, once you’ve identified the topic area, let’s look at what do we have already that, maybe like I was saying before, you could use to help inform creating this micro-credential. Then part of it is defining, what are your parameters? Are you going to take the approach that we do and say, “This is an online course, we want to aim for eight hours of content and there’s going to be an exam at the end.”? Or do you want to do, I remember when I was doing my research, some of their associations, maybe you just do a handful of different webinars. You submit those webinars, you still have to do an assessment at the end.

(23:10):

It really depends on how you want to go and what you want to include. It’s kind of going back to what we were saying at the very beginning, the benefit, the pros and the cons, is that there is no template. Good in the sense that you can create, bad in the sense that it’s hard to figure out what is the best practice, what is the best way to proceed on this? So that was a real challenge. We, like I said, focused on topic areas, then we’re like, “Okay, this is our structure. Now that we have the structure, it’s going to be the for everything. Online course, assessment, 50 questions at the end, that is the pillar by which we are going to create these micro-credentials.

Bill Sheehan (23:56):

Yeah, that makes sense. Let me ask you too, because I want to lead up to a question too about associations today. I always say we, because we’re part of the association community, but association staffs today are fully burdened. In other words, if you’ve never worked in an association, your days are full, and the membership’s expectations rarely go down, they go up. We’re truly being asked to do more with less. So in order to make this commitment, a lot of education departments, even in large organizations, are not big. They don’t have 10 or 15 or 20 people there to help. Some of them are one or two-person shops. So when you looked at this, there’s two questions here and I’ll come back to them just to make sure we answer them. But what was driving that demand for micro-credentialing?

(24:53):

Was it coming from members? Was it coming from the industry or was it coming from internally, the association saying, “Hey, we see something here where we can provide a differentiator in the marketplace.”? Then once you make that decision, do you have the right resources in place to continue to provide that same excellent service that the members are going to expect? I guess a third question would be, can you rely or should you rely more on your members? It can’t really be up to the staff to do this. It really takes, gives the expression, an entire village. The members, the volunteers need to participate and commit to that to make this happen. So that first question, what was really the… When you thought, “We got to start doing micro-credentialing,” what drove that? Was it the industry? Was it a combination of both?

Letty Kluttz (25:47):

It was a combination of both. It really was. We were also looking at how can we start to expand our educational portfolio. Before we started down this pathway of micro-credentials, our education programs were long. They were three and four day programs and we all know that people’s attention spans are so much shorter now. People want the flexibility to be able to study for 15 minutes here, go back and maybe a week later and pick up again. So it was really addressing the evolution of the educational needs just in the marketplace in general. How do you be innovative? micro-credentials is not that new to the education space, it is new to healthcare, I would say new-ish to healthcare in that sense. So I think it was a combination of all those things. Our members saying they wanted shorter, more focused content areas that they wanted to be able to hone in on. So again, I think it was a combination of all of those things.

Bill Sheehan (26:58):

Then moving forward, once you… Because once the die is cast, you can’t back up. You’re either committed or you’re not. So once you commit to this, do you find that this becomes even more complementary to your other educational offerings that you have as well? It’s another way to re-establish the relevancy of the association and its importance in establishing education in that so that your… Because the other educational programs don’t go away, the courses don’t go away, the same level of efforts is part of that. Are you finding that these micro-credentialing offerings are really becoming, we touched on this a little bit, more and more supportive of the other programs that you’re offering in learning and development?

Letty Kluttz (27:58):

Yes, very much so. one of the things that I want to add on that we touched upon, but this would be a cautionary tale. I think you kind of got to this with one of your questions, with how do you determine what topics you’re going to focus on for your micro-credentials?

Bill Sheehan (28:18):

Exactly.

Letty Kluttz (28:19):

When we first started down this journey, I literally said, all joking aside, I was like, “I’m going to create a game. Every time somebody says, ‘This should be a micro-credential,’ I’m going to put $5 in a jar and I’m going to be a millionaire by the end of this year.” Because it was the shiny new thing. It was like, this could be a micro-credential and this could be a micro-credential, and not everything can. So one of the things that we have been very mindful of this past year is actually creating a content strategy, and being very intentional about the areas and topics that we want to focus on. And having that help be your guide and your guardrails around determining what topics should move forward. And not everything needs to be a micro-credential either. I would argue that at some point you’re going to dilute the marketplace if you have 50 different micro-credentials out there. I don’t know that that makes sense.

(29:12):

So I think that’s the other conversation internally, checking in with SMEs to be like, “Does this make sense?” I think you were spot on too, is that these decisions shouldn’t be made in a vacuum. While we were looking at our content strategy, it was variety of… All based on research, all based on data from our members. This is what they were telling us they wanted and they needed, so that is helping us focus and identify, okay, what are the priorities? What are the topics that we really need to move forward with creating this content for? But again, maybe not all of them become micro-credentials. Maybe they become something else. Maybe it is a one-day course, maybe it’s a webinar, maybe it’s an infographic. There are so many different opportunities. Not everything has to be everything. You can’t be everything to everyone.

Bill Sheehan (29:59):

Yeah. That’s a very, very good point. The other thing I was going to ask is, do you think, and this could be a loaded question, but is micro-credentialing maybe more prominent in certain industries? Like in the food industry where my background was, I did a lot in the food side of things, or construction or engineering, healthcare, you always think, “Boy, there’d be some great micro-credentialing.” Can most associations really say, “Within the industry we represent, we probably could provide some micro-credentialing.”?

(30:37):

I think in this day and age right now, when there’s a lot of competition out there really for your members and prospective members’ attention, just getting their attention, there’s others out there who are offering learning and other credentialing that is outside of APIC or of other associations. But I’ve often felt the association itself is the one that kind of sets the standards. They represent the industry, their subject matter experts are in the industry and establishing this. As I see this now, I really think this is an incredible opportunity for associations to really differentiate themselves in saying, “Let us help you advance your career.” That’s why particularly that younger generation that’s coming in, and I think associations right now, there’s concern, let me say. That you have, maybe one of them, the older generation is getting ready to retire and-

Letty Kluttz (31:36):

Absolutely.

Bill Sheehan (31:37):

… that younger generation’s not really one yet to understand what an association can do. I often felt that any association is really designed to do three things, and that’s really to protect, promote, and advance that industry or that person or whatever. I think now micro-credentialing to me, because I think that younger generation really wants to have the credentials and the intelligence to advance their career and up the ladder a lot quicker than we did when I came into the industry. Are you seeing any benefits of that yet? I know it’s hard to do because it takes time, but are you seeing more interest from that younger generation to say, “I’d like to have this on my resume.”?

Letty Kluttz (32:21):

That was certainly part of our strategy with doing this. I think I’d mentioned earlier when you were looking at individuals who may not consider themselves an infection preventionist, micro-credentials are really good teaser. To be like, “Hey, take this course and see if this is something that you may be interested in.” There’s some really cool things that infection preventionists do. This is a way to gain insight and dip your toe in the water, if you will, in particular areas without committing yourself to a lifetime of being in a career. I think especially if you were talking about the younger generation, their attention spans are shorter, they don’t necessarily want to commit to a lifetime of doing X, Y, or Z. And this gives a really good opportunity to, like I said, test the waters and see if this is a topic that you’re interested in. There are so many different ways that you could go depending on the skill-based topics that you’re doing. They could be applicable to so many different industries depending on where you want to go and depending what background or what fields you’re in.

Bill Sheehan (33:31):

And when you’re designing these, are you including maybe some sort of gamification just to keep that interest there? Because I think most of us now are consuming education content probably on our cell phone at some time during a given day. Particularly in industries where if you are on site or in hospitals or wherever you are, you have a break, you want to sit down and do that. When you’re designing these micro-credentials, you need to create some level of engagement-

Letty Kluttz (34:02):

Bite-size.

Bill Sheehan (34:02):

Yeah.

Letty Kluttz (34:03):

It needs to be snippets. It’s like with flashcards in there, so if you wanted to just kind go in and test, or if you wanted to listen to one modular chapter that’s 15 minutes, you can go in and do it really quickly and then come back and do checks along the way. It really is, you can go in there and do a pretest, see how you do, and then there’s particular areas you may want to focus on that you didn’t do as well in. I think it is really designed with that learner in mind of wanting to be able to do it at their own pace. So you’ve got to make it engaging. Someone’s not going to sit in front of their computer and read for eight hours.

Bill Sheehan (34:42):

That’s right. And if you were to say when… The association staff, and really, I know there’s multiple departments that were probably involved, because you have educational learning, probably communication, membership, the marketing membership engagement, because there’s going to be certain steps as we go through this and once it’s ready to go, we need to promote it and the like. What would you say are the important ingredients? What I mean by that is, I’m sure you need a pretty strong, for example, learning management system, but you’re going to need other types of things in place. That might even be, ensure you have subject matter experts, make sure they can access your system, make sure you have other things. So when you were saying, if we really want to do this, what’s it going to take for us to be successful? What’s the administrative side of things and what some are the inner workings that you’re going to need to have a successful micro-credentialing program?

Letty Kluttz (35:46):

For us, one of the things that we, and you touched on this a little bit before, is that one of the first things we were like, “We don’t have the bandwidth. We don’t have the bandwidth, we don’t have the expertise to build a micro-credential.” So it’s finding the right partner to help you do that. That was instrumental in helping move us forward. We were lucky enough to actually be a first mover for, we partner with the Holmes Corporation to put our cer-prep programs on. We started to have these conversations with them to be like, “Hey, have you guys ever thought about doing a micro-credential? Shorter, smaller types of courses that are very similar to cer-prep in the sense that there’s a system, you go in, you read, you listen, you learn, you test, you take a test at the end.”

(36:38):

So for us, knowing that we did not have the internal resources, because we are a small but mighty team, as you mentioned before, was number one. We’re like, if we want to do this and we want to do it right, and that was really important to us, we wanted to make sure we were putting forward a quality product, something that we were proud of, something that we were proud to have our name associated with. So that was the first step, was making sure we had the right partner to be able to move this work forward. Then, as I mentioned before, finding the right subject matter experts, making sure that they understood what we were creating, why, who the audience was, and then honestly putting it in their very, very capable hands. So that was all done by having amazing partners to work with, with moving this work forward.

Bill Sheehan (37:28):

I’m glad you touched on that, because this question, or actually maybe more of a statement, is really going to come from a supplier or vendor perspective. In today’s age, and I’ve been in the association space a long time, 30 years, and I haven’t really seen the type of relationships we’re having now between associations and suppliers. Suppliers are getting smarter. They know the sponsors, those folks, the exhibitors, they know or they’re starting to learn, it takes a lot to run an association. It takes administrative and it takes money. So they’re starting to look at things a little differently. Like, “Yeah, we’ll still exhibit, we’ll still be there, but we want to be seen as a thought leader and we want to be part of the ecosystem.” So you’re starting to see D2L is one of them.

(38:19):

What we do is, we want to be able to offer administrative support, intellectual capital, as well as finances to help advance something for the industry. Even if it doesn’t benefit us directly, what the vendors and the suppliers are really starting to see is leaning on us. Let us bring some of our people together for the good of the industry and help do that. I think sometimes association staff are afraid to ask because they’re afraid of the backlash. What am I going to get out of this? What am I… So it is nice to hear with the Holmes Corporation, the way you approach them for that, but I think that’s critical. I really believe in this day and age right now, it’s critical to lean on that part of your community that can bring you the necessary resources to help you achieve what you do. Because they, us, the suppliers, do not want to see your association fail because our livelihood runs through you and that with that effect.

Letty Kluttz (39:20):

Right. I will say, a side note to that too, I think one of the things, because I also can appreciate the association side where you’re like, “Okay, how much does it cost? Is it realistic that we can actually have a vendor do this work for us?” I mean, you put together a cost analysis, you ROI. And you figure out, okay, what’s the investment, what’s the breakeven? Kind of what you were getting to before where you talk about, okay, what is the campaign, the marketing campaign around this? How do we tell people about it? How do we incentivize people to take these courses to purchase this education with us? I think it kind of goes back to what you were saying before, associations are the credible source, they’re the trusted advisor. So people should come to you first when it comes to that content that’s specifically related to your industry.

(40:06):

But I think all of that is such an important conversation to have when you’re putting together the strategy behind what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, how you’re going to get there, put those goals in place and have regular check ins. We have regular meetings with our marketing and communications team, regular meetings with the Holmes Corporation, altogether where we’re looking at the numbers, where area we? Where do we need to go? What’s missing? What are people telling us that they want to hear? And again, that whole continuous improvement performance management is absolutely critical to the entire time, the whole life cycle of your micrograntuals. It never goes away. So I think that’s important to note as well.

Bill Sheehan (40:49):

That’s a good point. It’s almost like, you got to put a, I don’t want to call it a task force, but you got to get a group, whoever that is, committed and just like you would any other committee. You have committee meetings throughout the year and you have agendas and you have topics, and I guess that was part of the plan. But before you get there, did this need to be board approved? I guess particularly in the healthcare, it would probably have to be, but do you have to get their approval to move forward and then they may offer some advice and counsel as well?

Letty Kluttz (41:21):

I would say it depends. It depends on what the investment is. We let our board know obviously that this is a direction we were going in and the strategy, and some of our board members actually sat on the initial task force when we were having conversations and brainstorming, what could micro credentials be for us? What does this look like for us? So bringing them along that journey with you, but we didn’t have to get board approval to proceed with offering micro-credentials as part of our education portfolio. So I would say it depends.

(41:55):

But for us, like I said, I think it’s very important to keep them informed of new and innovative initiatives that you’re bringing forward to your membership, because they are part of your membership. They’re always a good litmus test too, to say, “Does this make sense?” Do the stiff test, if you will, to see if it’s like, “Oh yeah, that’s a great idea,” or, “Have you thought about this?” So I always think it absolutely, where perhaps it’s not approval per se, but definitely getting their input and their feedback and letting them know that this is the direction you’re going in, will… Because you obviously never want to surprise your board, I would say, when it comes to what you’re [inaudible 00:42:33]-

Bill Sheehan (42:33):

No.

Letty Kluttz (42:33):

… to your [inaudible 00:42:34]-

Bill Sheehan (42:33):

No, you don’t.

Letty Kluttz (42:35):

So that would be some of my advice. If you’re considering going in this direction.

Bill Sheehan (42:40):

You’re right. Along the way, when you were putting this together, did you have little focus groups or little testing just to make sure you’re on the right path, and this is what we are shooting for? Do you have to put those type of things in place just to make sure that before you actually launch this, that’s been tested by the good housekeeping seal of approval folks, in a way?

Letty Kluttz (43:06):

Yeah, we felt pretty confident on the topics that we first selected for a variety of reasons. So we didn’t necessarily do focus groups on those. But like I said before, our member surveys, we do a mega survey. We are using data and feedback to help us determine what topics to move forward on in the future. But these were not earth-shattering ideas, let’s just put it that way, when we came up with the topics that we wanted to pursue first.

Bill Sheehan (43:38):

Yeah. I would think too, given the state of the association community today, again, where it’s probably one industry that faces the most competition in any other industry, you have a lot of other folks out there and technical companies and others, really fighting for a share of dollar and a share of mind of your members. So when I look at micro-credentialing and the buzz that’s still out there, you’re starting to hear that almost more than AI this micro-credentialing, I’m not so sure, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m not so sure micro-credentialing are a nice-to-have. I do think in this day and age, it’s a need-to-have. Because of all the other ways the marketplace is changing with all these new technologies and AI and everything else, you really need to have a differentiator. So I don’t think micro-credentialing is a nice-to-have, I think it’s a need-to-have. Would that be a fair statement?

Letty Kluttz (44:42):

Yeah, I do. I think that it’s one of those things, it’s like all the cool kids are doing it. In a lot of ways it is the future of educational offerings, and it’s a nice complement to what you may already have in your portfolio. I do think it is definitely something that associations should not sign off on not doing. And really do think that it’s something everyone should consider looking into.

Bill Sheehan (45:16):

I think too, it’s not something that you necessarily want to kick the can and say, “We’ll talk about that next year or next board meeting,” because it’s not going to go away and there’s others in the interim that are creeping up. I often feel too, that if you get behind in micro-credentialing, it’s going to be really, really hard to catch up and leap what you can. So you got to get in now, and you got to make it a dedicated effort that we’re going to create micro-credentialing. And like you’re saying, you got to start somewhere. I think maybe, I don’t want everyone picking up the phone and calling Letty, but talk to your colleagues, talk to your compatriots within the association space who are doing this. I would highly suggest taking them for a cup of coffee and say, “I need help on getting this done.” I just think that’s where things are going to be moving.

(46:05):

Let me ask another question, and this is, I’m going to put my non-dues revenue hat on, which I’m a huge [inaudible 00:46:10]. A lot of folks who are members think everything should be given away for free, that should be part of my membership too. When I was in the association and sitting on boards, it was my goal to understand that, hey, our membership dues, particularly in professional societies, a lot of that goes to keep the lights on so we can have an organization that produces these wonderful things. So we got to pay rent, and we got to pay salary, you got to pay insurance, you got to pay all these other things. Then we’ll sell other stuff. With micro-credentialing, did you find initially when you launched something like this, was it a charge? Was this an additional-

Letty Kluttz (46:48):

Oh, absolutely. That was never a discussion, honestly. It was never a discussion if it was something that we wanted to give away for free. I think it is interesting that you bring this point up, because we have been having multiple conversations of defining what our member value proposition is. That is so, so, so important so that you can define what are the benefits of being a member of X association. I mean, yes, you do have… So when we look at all of the different benefits that we are providing to our members, and I think micro-credentials falls into one of these buckets, it is never discount. There is a benefit. You pay less than somebody who is coming in that’s not a member. That is where to us, that was sort of a no-brainer, that this was where this was going to go.

(47:32):

To your point, it’s not sustainable to be able to provide this to members for free. Because of the investment in creating, because of the investment in making sure that the content is constantly updated and relevant, and all of the things that go into providing it as an educational opportunity for the learners. So that’s the approach that we took. I think that that’s just… Now, that’s not to say that you couldn’t do it, but I would advise that this should not be something that you give away for free. Also, one of the things that I think it’s really, really important, and this kind of gets to pricing, that is such an important conversation to have around your content and to make sure that you are not devaluing the content that you are providing to your members. You can always discount. You can never increase. I should say, you can never. It doesn’t land very well-

Bill Sheehan (47:32):

Exactly.

Letty Kluttz (48:34):

… if you’re like, “Just kidding, I’m going to charge you 200 more dollars now.” Because we undervalued this when we send it out. So I think all of that is such an important conversation to have. When you’re looking just across your portfolio of products that you’re offering to your members, what are you providing for free? What is exclusive? What is discounted? And just making sure you’re defining what those pillars are in the criteria that something, that product, that service, insert whatever it is, fits those criteria to fit in whichever category you want to put it in.

Bill Sheehan (49:10):

Yeah. I am glad you said that, and I hope a lot of the associations will be happy to hear that too. Because you’ve probably heard this saying a lot, and I say it all the time, the nonprofit is a tax status, it’s not a business model. I’ve often found too, in my experience being an association, if you ever give something away for free, it’s typically valued as such, so they don’t necessarily use it. They think it’s part of it, it must not be that important. But if they’re paying for it, they’re going to see the value, they’re going to participate, and they’re going to engage. And I always often tell association executives, your competition is charging them, and probably a lot more and providing a lot less, but they’re paying for it because they see value in it. That’s your competition. So I think when you’re looking at this and launching this, don’t be thinking, “Oh, it’s another way for us to keep a member,” you’re going to go out of business in that aspect. I do think, and you’re probably seeing this too, your members are seeing the value of a micro-credential.

Letty Kluttz (50:18):

Well, and like you were saying before, it’s all in how you talk about it. It’s the, what’s in it for me? How do you help explain to them the value of the investment that they are putting in their own professional development, the value that they’re putting in their own career development, that this is just going to help them be better at their job. I think being that career partner and being that association that is there to help them learn, enhance their skills, is an invaluable investment that they’re making in themselves.

Bill Sheehan (50:52):

I think too, and I know we’re coming to the end here, but one of the things too is, I think in today’s age where associations now, instead of trying to find out what the members want and why would you join, and what can we do to get you to stay as a member, I think you kind of figured out a bit of the secret sauce here, is that we’re really helping pull you through your career. So we’re not only giving the micro-credentials to help support your career so you can earn more money, but as an association, we also provide mentor. Other folks that are like-minded and going through some of the very same things you’re doing and have been through it many years. That’s why I think associations are so poised to be that leader when it comes to micro-credentialing, and learning, and education and alike.

(51:46):

Are you seeing some of those same results? A lot of people say, “Hey, I love this. This is good stuff. This is really helping me.” And now they’re kind of utilizing that credential, even on resumes and socializing in other ways, but it’s all under the umbrella of APIC. You help provide that. Are you seeing some of that? Are you getting some good feedback from members and the like?

Letty Kluttz (52:07):

We’re still very much in the beginning of our micro-credential journey, but I am going to say yes. I think that’s what we’re going to see. I truly do believe that. I truly do believe that we’re providing our members with content and with opportunities to learn that’s going to help them do everything that you just described. That is going to end up coming back to us in spades. I think that you create this community of like-minded people that are all in there rallying behind, and this is why I’ve spent my career in associations. Who doesn’t want to get behind a mission that talks about a world’s safe of infection? Who doesn’t want to rally behind that? I think there’s this sense of that you are doing good and you are bettering yourself to better others and better the world at the same time. And there is something that is incredibly rewarding and just makes you really, really proud to be associated with an organization and association, a company that gives those opportunities for you to do just that.

Bill Sheehan (53:16):

Yeah, that’s a pretty powerful statement. I like that. I like that. That’s probably a great way to end it. You’re doing good things. I think too, from the association executives, and even those who may not offer certification in general, may want to begin to think about offering these little micro-credentialing badges and digital badges, just that separates you within the industry, but also separate your members within the industry. So again, we’re there to kind of protect the industry, we want to promote its goodness, and we want to advance it through education and learning. I think micro-credentialing right now and for the foreseeable future is going to be the way to go. Because I think that younger community, which we’re all counting on to keep us going, wants it.

Letty Kluttz (54:05):

Absolutely. And to your point, it’s a great way if you don’t have a certification, start small. You don’t have to do a full-blown certification. You could do a bunch of different micro-credentials and then you see learn from that, and then you use that to create your body of knowledge to then create a larger certification. So you don’t necessarily have to start big every time. This could be a really good entree into figuring out, is the certification right for your industry if you don’t have one yet.

Bill Sheehan (54:34):

And I agree. And I think the other thing here too is, don’t try to do it yourself. Because you’ll just get frustrated, it’s overwhelming, and you’ll put it away. Lean on your members. That’s their industry. You’re trying to help grow that industry. I think a lot of them will be very helpful and want to supply those things such as, again, financing and administrative resources and other connections and alike. I think you’re a perfect example of how that happened.

(55:02):

So Letty, that was a quick hour. That was a very quick hour. That was a very quick hour. This is fascinating. I heard great things about your presentation at ASAE, and that’s what I was reaching out. I’d love to chat with you more. So thank you so much for your time on this. It’s really been an honor and I wish you continued success with everything you do at APIC.

Letty Kluttz (55:25):

Thank you so much, Bill. It was a pleasure to be here. Appreciate the invitation, and look forward to future conversations about micro-credentials.

Bill Sheehan (55:32):

I love it. I’d love it. Thanks again.

(55:36):

You’ve been listening to Learning by Association, a podcast where we delve into the ever-evolving world of associations and the challenges they face in navigating the currents of change. This episode was produced by D2L, a global learning innovation company, helping organizations reshape the future of education and work. To learn more about our solutions, please visit www.d2l.com, and don’t forget to subscribe so you can stay up to date with new episodes. Thanks for joining us, and we’ll see you next time.